https://youtu.be/Zp8Y3CAq-oQ?is=3TqmiOZUE-snTtkp
Here a couple of LDS Brothers talk about modesty. They keep it more levelheaded on this subject than I often can; I really can’t imagine anyone being offended by what they’re saying, though somehow I know people do. I’ll say they used great tact in this introductory message. It’s not intended to flesh out all of this topic, but to show that the topic should exist and be dealt with
They both agree that It’s tricky to draw the line in a certain place. But the point they make is that there is a line somewhere, and it should be dealt with. Currently, the prevailing culture is to shame anyone who tries.
Something they didn’t bring up that could have been brought up when talking about where to draw the line is the temple garment. This is one but not the only indicator of modesty. All Christians, young and old, should dress in a way that would cover the garment. There’s been some change lately to allow for more revealing clothing while accommodating the garment, and that’s a whole different conversation. Suffice it to say for here that the garment is a blessing and helps us avoid many pitfalls, spiritually, physically, emotionally, and sexually.
The Strength of Youth pamphlet says to talk to your church leaders and parents about this, meaning they should weigh in on it. They’re supposed to be involved in helping you find out where to draw the line.
I agree. Home is the final refuge on the place where the older generation must pass on Christian culture to the rising generation. The church can function as an extension of family and give some advice but it will never be able to teach as poignantly and efficiently as the parents.
The guest points out that we all know there’s such a thing as immodesty. Public nudity is the obvious example.
I agree and will go so far as to say that setting can change things. Obviously, marital intimacy is one of the places to enjoy the beauty of the image of God, which we are. A few other settings like an art museum or a ballet might qualify, assuming that the general mood is reverence and dignity. Our society seems to have forgotten the difference between sacred and profane, private and public. We are a secular society that does not understand moral transcendence and the Divine mystery of the human body. We boil everything down to science, and we miss the forest for the trees.
The guest points out something that Jewish teacher Ben Shapiro says, that we do the routines prescribed, even if someone blindly, because living those prescriptions teaches us the principles behind them. In this way, it can be a detriment when there are no specific standards for us to perform. The guest puts it well when he says sometimes we have a hate-hate relationship with the Law of Moses, when we should have a love-hate relationship with it, because it was from God; it was a schoolmaster. And sometimes our youth might need principles like that to help train them for the gospel.
They say we should not have a checklist gospel or a self-centered gospel.
Indeed, Christ came to balance things out. Today, balancing continues to be needed. Woke Jesus isn’t Biblical Jesus. God does have standards for us.
I agree. The Book of Mormon specifically rebukes us for not being grateful for the Jews. If we’ve not learned the lessons, we need to go back to school. And hint: one of the signs that you learned the lessons is that you’re living the principle even without being told to. If you’re not living the principle, that’s a sign that you haven’t learned it sufficiently. A flagrant disregard of all things of the law of Moses shows deep spiritual immaturity and fundamental incomprehension of the gospel of Christ. Not just talking about the law of Moses, the principle remains that sometimes it’s simply wise and prudent to have specific rules for people to follow when it comes to important things where the stakes are high, and the law of Chastity, very closely related to modesty standards, is one of those high-stakes topics. Ultimately, at this late stage in the history of the world, the USA promised land, and the restored church, we could be hearing the message of “if you still can’t figure this out, sorry it’s over for you.” God is love, and God grants mercy to the repentant, but to the wicked there is no mercy (Psalms
They point out that you just want women to wear burqas and men can’t talk about modesty and women’s clothes, and that your Pharisees, if you have anything to say about this, these people are really just trying to shut you up. They’re not willing to have the conversation and address the concerns.
I would agree. Maybe there’s a little bit of flexibility on that line, but it needs to be a matter of conversation, and it is a real problem.
In Thomas Moore’s Utopia book, he talks about a supposedly advanced society that really is corrupt, sort of a dystopia. Some of the key signs of corruption of the society are that they happen to be cannibals, and no one wears any pants!
The guest says women are often naive about how their appearance affects men. He harkens to a preacher who said women have no idea what goes on in men’s minds, and if they did it would gross them out and they would run away. Some naivety may exist, but we all know that what we wear sends messages.
Indeed, perhaps women wield the sharp sword of their beauty in unwise ways. Perhaps that sword should be sheathed until it is ready for blood. Let the wielder of it at least beware, lest the intended function turn into something else.
The guest reminds us that when the church is calling us to take a higher and holier way, that doesn’t mean let your standards down.
Indeed, too many people are viewing the change of manual without specific guidelines as an excuse to become less modest. If anything, these changes in the youth book and so forth are an encouragement to become more modest because now the ball is in our court, and more condemnation rests with us as we independently make these decisions.
The guest says that FSY groups used to have modesty standards and he could call out boys wearing short shorts, etc., but that now they have dramatically slid on modesty standards, and can’t say anything to the immodest youth.
Indeed, our culture, just like the rest of American Christian culture, is getting worse, not better, at modesty.
The host makes a good point that it’s not about everyone having their own path; it’s about God having a path, and we choose to accept or reject that path.
The host says the manual used to give specifics; now it just teaches the doctrine, but now people aren’t just ignoring the specifics; they’re ignoring the whole doctrine!
Indeed, we should be different from the world in the way we appear. The late apostle elder Robert D. Hales pointed out that the standards of society and the standards of the church used to be similar, but now they are very far apart. The question is, are your life choices tending toward becoming more alike or more different than pop culture? Because you know where pop culture is going and who guides that. Hint – it’s not Jesus.
The guest says it’s obvious that people dress the way that gets attention from other people. People don’t dress just for themselves.
I would say even if a woman wants to argue that she’s just dressing that way for herself, the hidden meaning is that she appreciates the praise she gets, verbal or otherwise, when she dresses that way. But let’s take another angle. Even beyond the fact that it’s selfish to just dress for yourself and not be considerate of other people (like eating a bag of candy in a room full of hungry children while they stare at you and desperately, painfully long for what you have). This may sound strange, but the fact of female beauty is something that enchants everyone. Both men and women can recognize that female beauty is exalted, even beyond male beauty. Therefore, a wise woman will not cross boundaries to exalt her own beauty. She will not become a narcissist basking in her own Glory. No, the calling of a Christian is to take up the cross instead.
